The Street Paper Vendor and the Pope

As Catholics around the world welcome Pope Leo XIV, we look back in our archives to a rare and candid interview between a street paper vendor and a Pope.

Widely considered the progressive pontiff, Pope Francis passed away on Easter Monday, 21 April, aged 88. Though he rarely gave interviews, the Holy Father sat down for a chat with The Big Issue 10 years ago: Pope Francis met Marc, a former vendor of the Dutch street paper Straatnieuws.

Pope Francis became best known and beloved for his commitment to social justice. While he declined the invitation to go out for pizza, the discussion itself was expansive, covering topics of childhood, community, wealth and fighting for a world without poverty.

 

The team from Straatnieuws in the Netherlands and vendor Marc are ushered into the Pope’s meeting room. And then he enters: Pope Francis, the spiritual leader of 1.3 billion Catholics around the world.

“Please, sit down, friends,” he says with a gentle wave of his hand. “How nice to have you here.” He seems a calm, friendly man; simultaneously energetic and precise.

 

Straatnieuws: Holy Father, what do you remember about the streets of your childhood?

Pope Francis: From when I was one year old to when I entered the seminary, I always lived on the same street. It was a simple neighbourhood in Buenos Aires, with one- and two-storey homes. There was a small square, where we played football… I used to sneak out of the house to play football with the boys after school.

My father worked in a factory that was just a few hundred metres away. He was a bookkeeper. And my grandparents lived within 50 metres. We were all just a few steps from one another. I also remember the names of the people, when as a priest I went to give the sacraments.

 

How did your personal commitment to the poor begin?

So many memories come to mind. [For example], a woman who worked in our home three times a week to help my mother. She helped with the laundry. She had two children. They were Italian, and had survived the war; they were very poor, but they were very good people. I have never forgotten that woman. Her poverty struck me.

We were not rich; normally we made it to the end of the month, but not much more. We didn’t own a car, we didn’t go on vacations or things like that. But she often needed even the most basic items. They didn’t have enough, and so my mother gave her things. She eventually went back to Italy, and then later she returned. I found her again when I was the Archbishop of Buenos Aires, and she was already 90. I was able to assist her until her death, at the age of 93.

One day, she gave me a medal of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, which I still carry with me every day. This medal – which is also a memento – is very good for me. Would you like to see it? [Pope Francis produces the medal, completely discoloured after years of use.] With this, I think of her every day, and of how she suffered from poverty. And I think of all the others who have suffered. I wear it, and I use it to pray.

 

Do you feel free here at the Vatican?

Two days after having been elected Pope, I went to take possession of the papal apartment in the Apostolic Palace. It is not a luxurious apartment. But it is wide, and large… After having seen the apartment, it seemed to me to be a bit like an upside-down funnel, so large but with only one small door. That means being isolated. I thought to myself: I can’t live here, simply for mental health reasons. It would not be good for me. [So] I asked to stay here, at the Domus Sanctae Marthae. And this is good for me, because I feel free here. I eat in the dining hall where all the guests eat. And when I am early, I eat with the staff. I meet people, I greet them, and this makes the golden cage seem a bit less of a cage. But I miss the streets.

 

Holy Father, Marc would like to invite you to come have a pizza with us. What do you say?

I would like to, but we wouldn’t be able to manage it. Because the moment I leave here, the people would come to me. When I went out into the city to change the lenses in my glasses, it was seven o’clock in the evening. There was barely anybody in the streets. They drove me to the optician, and as I got out of the car, there was a woman who saw me and cried: “It’s the Pope!” And then I was inside, and all the people were outside…

 

Your namesake, Saint Francis, embraced radical poverty, and even sold his gospel book. As Pope…do you ever feel under pressure to sell the treasures of the Church?

That is an easy question. They are not the treasures of the Church, but rather the treasures of humanity. For example, if tomorrow I wanted to auction off Michelangelo’s Pietà, I couldn’t, because it is not the property of the Church… It belongs to all humanity. This is true for all the treasures of the Church. But we have begun to sell the gifts and other things that are given to me… There were some cars that were sold or given away with a lottery, and the proceeds were used for the poor. There are some things that can be sold, and these are sold.

 

You do realise how the wealth of the Church might create this type of expectation?

Yes, if we were to make a catalogue of all the Church’s possessions, we could think: the Church is very rich. [And], yes, the Church possesses a great deal of real estate assets, but we use them to maintain the Church’s structures and to fund the many works carried out in needy countries: hospitals, schools. Yesterday, for example, I had €50,000 sent to the Congo for the construction of three schools in poor villages. Education is so important for children. I went to the administration, I made the request, and the money was sent.

 

At this point, Vendor Marc whether Pope Francis ever dreamt of being the Pope, even when he was a little boy? The Holy Father answers with a resolute “No”. Then he continues: But I will tell you a secret. When I was little, there weren’t many shops that sold things. What we had was a market, where there was the butcher, the greengrocer, etc. I went with my mother and my grandmother to do the shopping. Once, when I was quite little, about four, someone asked me: ‘What do you want to do when you grow up?’ And I answered: “A butcher!”

 

Marc: You were unknown to many until 13 March 2013. Then, overnight, you became famous throughout the world. How was that experience for you?

It happened, and I was not expecting it. But I have not lost peace. And that is a grace from God. I don’t really think about the fact that I am famous. I say to myself: “Now you have an important position, but in 10 years nobody will know you anymore” [he laughs]. You know, there are two types of fame: the fame of the “greats”, those who have done truly great things, such as Madame Curie, and the fame of the vain. But this second type of fame is like a soap bubble.

 

Holy Father, can you imagine a world without poverty?

I want a world without poverty. We need to fight for that. But I am a believer, and I know sin is always within us. And there is always human greed, the selfishness which creates poverty. That is why it is difficult for me to imagine a world without poverty. If you think of the children exploited for slave labour, or of children exploited for sexual abuse… I don’t know whether we will ever have a world without poverty, because there is always sin, and it leads to selfishness. But we must fight… Always.

 

» Courtesy of INSP News Service and Straatnieuws, The Netherlands.

 

Photos by Frank Dries/Straatnieuws

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